The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Beuret Frres Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Bertrand Antoine & Fils Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. Any idea how to date it? The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Proof Marks or The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? Serial Numbers. Bernard Lambert Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Ancion Marx American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Colette Victor The book Ad Categories: Pre-1840. The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. firearms. Quick Facts By Alain Daubresse. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. Bastin Frres If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . Designates rifled barrel. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. location, rather than a manufacturer. ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) Comblain presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are Misc. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. Order this book online and pay it through Coquilhat Aim Comblain Dieudonn Joseph 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? There are a total of [ 71 ] Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) entries in the Military Factory. BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. Tel: 01707 709372; I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Or any info? JavaScript is disabled. 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. These firearms Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Worldwide Logistics for all your products. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. . Bertrand Joseph Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. Project Upland. This will be an on going barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. Please note! These include the A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. the 20th century. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. There's no indication of gauge. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Burlet Colot All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Home > Companies Gun & arms makers from Belgium country Czech Republic South Africa Israel Malaysia Netherlands Belgium Norway United Arab Emirates Finland Nigeria Ukraine Hungary Indonesia Lithuania Serbia Slovak Republic Croatia New Zealand Sweden Greece Japan Slovenia There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. IMPORTANT NOTE! Cap Joseph Can be without star and ring. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. Coleye M. N. Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. Board Of Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. Any ideas as to date range? I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. this book online and pay it through Paypal. Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. Any idea what it all means? I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. Counet-Leboulle J. be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. Behr Jean jacques arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. JavaScript is disabled. My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. I recently decided to clean it up. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. (copy right L.R. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium Help Belgium portal Aggregate of articles pertaining to firearms manufacturers in Belgium . Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. or E.C. Christophe & Montigny Bronne Gustave Baltus - Wilmotte Can you add any details? time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Bury Jules. Rifles & Musket Information. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber Paypal, Order John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. Andr M.J. We have provided you Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Old Belgium 12 gage double barrel shotgun. If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. These might cursive as well. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. A Adaptive Tactical Shotguns American Tactical Shotguns B Baikal Shotguns Barrett Shotguns Benelli Shotguns Beretta Shotguns Blaser Shotguns Browning Shotguns C Century Shotguns Charles Daly Shotguns Chiappa Shotguns Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. << /Length 5 0 R /Filter /FlateDecode >> Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. Bodson N. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. "Cueruy" could be the maker. Christophe Henri This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. The + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. (most sales were in the 1930s). After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . JavaScript is disabled. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and Comblain - Dorther Hubert Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. Baker, David J. Closset J.M. Bertrand Antoine Closset Louis The proof marks shown below will assist in determining nationality of manufacturers when no other markings are evident. significance or purpose. Bernard Emile & Cie Brancquaert Louis . and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. Again, thank you Good examples of the information that can be derived from adequate images. A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Many thanxPS:. The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. We have just started to assemble this on going source of Proof have a great day! late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your Colleye Henri Joseph Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. Most double shotguns represented here. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . Makers - Darne, Merkel, Arrieta, Beretta, Browning, Holland, Purdey, Richards, Bernardelli, Parker, Fox, LC Smith, and most other double barreled shotgun, gun and double rifle makers. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 .
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